Episode 34: Redefining Retirement for Executives and Owners
Episode Takeaways
You’re a leader one to three years from retirement. The financial plan is coming together, but you still can’t picture what an ordinary Tuesday will look like once the title, the calendar, and the team are gone. Filling your free time seems like the obvious task, yet a busy schedule alone may not replace the identity, belonging, and purpose your work has given you.
In this conversation, Danton Troyer and Kyle Luetters talk with Thomas Auffenberg, founder of The Next Chapter Institute and author of Discerning Retirement, about the non-financial side of leaving a long career. Danton shares that people often underestimate the retirement transition and the loss of identity, even after the numbers are in place. Tom explains why deciding who you want to be in your next chapter can help guide how you choose to spend your time.
Tom discusses:
- Why loss of identity, loss of community, boredom, and lack of structure, meaning, and purpose are common concerns for successful people approaching retirement
- How, in his experience, about 95% of program participants arrive focused on filling their time, and most end up focused on who they want to become
- Why the being question can help answer the doing question, from being more generous to being more patient
- How his own spiritual approach, grounded in Ignatian discernment and prayer, shapes the program and who it tends to fit
- How small peer groups that meet monthly may help turn a written next-chapter plan into action through brainstorming, encouragement, and accountability
- Why deciding on the right balance matters, since people can become just as busy in retirement as they were at work
- And more!
Connect With Danton Troyer:
Connect with Kyle Luetters:
Connect With Thomas Auffenberg:
About Our Guest:
Tom retired in 2016 after careers in teaching, law/financial planning, and twenty-five years as a business owner. His education includes a BA in philosophy from the Santa Clara University, a law degree from St. Louis University, a Certified Financial Planner® designation, an MA in Theology and a Certificate in Spiritual Direction from Aquinas Institute, and training to companion people making the Spiritual Exercises. Tom participated in a one-year program focusing on transitioning from the work years to the retirement years at The Halftime Institute and afterward became a Certified Halftime Coach. In addition to serving on several non-profit boards in the St. Louis community, Tom previously served as the Regional Coordinator for Contemplative Leaders in Action – St. Louis, and is currently the Program Director for The Next Chapter Program.
Resources:
Transcript
[00:00:00] -: Welcome to Wit, Wisdom, and What Matters Most with Danton Troyer and Kyle Luetters from Moneta Wealth Management. In this podcast, we help corporate executives and business leaders navigate the real-life uncertainty around new financial life stages, from complex benefits and career changes to retirement and legacy planning.
[00:00:21] -: Join us as we explore these career and life-shaping moments with our guests, helping listeners find clarity so they can focus on what matters most to them
[00:00:32] Kyle Luetters: And welcome to another edition of Wit, Wisdom, and What Matters Most. It’s a podcast with Moneta’s Gast Freeman Troyer team. My name is Kyle Luetters, joined by Danton Troyer.
[00:00:42] Kyle Luetters: And Danton, you wanna go ahead and tell everybody who our special guest is on today’s episode?
[00:00:49] Danton Troyer: Yeah, we have a special guest today, Tom, who literally teaches a class on retirement and more about life transitions. But he and I had talked about that, and one of our previous guests had attended as [00:01:00] a student of Tom’s, and so that’s what got us connected.
[00:01:03] Danton Troyer: And so I’m really just along for the ride today, too, to learn more about the program and kinda what Tom talks about as well. So the topic for today is gonna be redefining retirement for executives and business owners. But I’m sure we’ll talk about some other things along the way as well. So Tom, I wanna give you a minute here.
[00:01:20] Danton Troyer: Can you just give us super high level your background, and then a little bit about what you’re doing right now?
[00:01:28] Thomas Auffenberg: Yeah. Let’s see…I’ll start with family. Married for 46 years, got four kids, 10 grandkids. I had three careers. I taught high school right out of college for three years. I went to law school, practiced law in one way or another for about 12 years.
[00:01:51] Thomas Auffenberg: And then I ended up buying a business, and that turned out to be the lion’s share of my career. I was 25 years as a business owner and sold [00:02:00] it in 2016. In the process, created this program, and I wouldn’t call it a job, but I’ve been leading this program for now going into the 10th year as one of my retirement activities.
[00:02:16] Kyle Luetters: No kidding. And so, how do you teach a class about retirement? How do you do what you do? Where did the idea come from? You mentioned retirement activities, but where did this kind of spawn from, and what’s the genesis of it been since you exited?
[00:02:32] Thomas Auffenberg: Let me correct your terminology just a little bit.
[00:02:35] Thomas Auffenberg: I don’t call it a class. And, and I don’t know that I’d really call myself a teacher, although there is some lecture part to it, but I’m not conducting the program to teach people how to retire. I’m taking them on a journey where they make the decisions on how they want their next chapter to look like.
[00:02:58] Thomas Auffenberg: So it’s really more of [00:03:00] a, in a way, it’s a spiritual journey to help people discern how they wanna live that next chapter of life, in this case, retirement And I don’t really call them students, I call them participants ’cause…
[00:03:15] Danton Troyer: I knew we had talked. I knew the terminology I was using was not correct
Right. But yes. And so how many people have you seen just through the years? How long have you been doing this?
[00:03:24] Thomas Auffenberg: I started in fall of 2017, and- Okay …we generally run about 35 people through the program a year. The program’s expanded to St. Paul, Minnesota, and they run a similar number through a year.
[00:03:39] Thomas Auffenberg: And I do an online version. That tends to be about 12 people a year.
[00:03:45] Danton Troyer: Gotcha. Wow. And so just, again, high level on the class, and some people have no idea what we’re talking about as far as it’s not a class, the journey. How does that… What are the things that you’re talking about? What are some of the things that– Why would people enroll in that?[00:04:00]
[00:04:00] Thomas Auffenberg: I think a lot of people who are– And I’ll tell you a little bit about the audience we tend to attract. Your name for this was for business executives, I think, and owners. We really attract a real cross-section, a number of business executives and business owners, but a lot of professionals as well, a lot of doctors, lawyers, accountants, engineers, teachers, high school- college professors, and those kind of things.
[00:04:27] Thomas Auffenberg: So a lot of them have been very successful people, very busy people, and are approaching a transition that can be a little scary as to what is it gonna look like? And I could go into some of those common fears, but what we’re trying to really help them with is to create a vision that they’re excited about living in their next chapter.
[00:04:53] Thomas Auffenberg: So we go through quite a bit of material to arrive at that. But one of the things that I always– I think [00:05:00] one of the attractive things about the program, people have these concerns, the common ones, loss of identity, loss of community, maybe boredom, maybe some health concerns. How will they deal with a lack of structure?
[00:05:14] Thomas Auffenberg: They’ve always had a lot of structure in their life. What about the lack of meaning and purpose? They’ve had a purpose. It’s been pretty clear, and now they’re not sure what that’s gonna be. By and large, you’ve got successful people who wanna make the most of retirement and are gonna do whatever they think would be a smart thing to do to accomplish that.
[00:05:36] Thomas Auffenberg: And some of them view this program as their way of really being thorough and complete about trying to make the most out of their retirement chapter.
[00:05:45] Danton Troyer: Gotcha.
[00:05:46] Kyle Luetters: Love that. What do you hear, Tom, as the most common concerns from folks when they do start to think about this transition to a new chapter/ journey?
[00:05:59] Kyle Luetters: They can call it [00:06:00] retirement, but it is a new chapter…journey. What do you hear as common concerns?
[00:06:03] Thomas Auffenberg: I might have jumped the gun on that. I kinda covered that. I think loss of identity is a big one. I think loss of community is a big one. I think lack of meaning and purpose, big one. I think lack of structure.
[00:06:16] Thomas Auffenberg: We don’t cover the financial aspect of retiring at all. They’ve gotta kinda have that figured out through working with firms like Moneta or whatever. But there are some that will wonder if they’re gonna outlive their resources. But I think summing it up, I’d say they want to try to live this next chapter in the best possible way, and they’re kinda uncertain as to how to do that or what they want that to look like.
[00:06:49] Danton Troyer: When are people signing up for your class? After they’ve already made this decision and they are retired, or are you seeing more people as they’re, like, [00:07:00] five years out? What are you typically seeing as far as signups?
[00:07:03] Thomas Auffenberg: Yeah…my target audience is people near retirement or recently retired.
Danton Troyer: Okay.
[00:07:09] Thomas Auffenberg: Those, and there’s plenty of those to fill the class. If somebody has been retired five or 10 years, they may really benefit from it. They may be wanting to take a new look at it, but typically they can get somewhat set in their ways, and they probably aren’t as open, and they aren’t as attracted to the program.
[00:07:28] Thomas Auffenberg: So it tends to be people two, three… Sometimes we’ve had people 10 years away from retirement, but usually it’s one, two, or three years away from retirement, or maybe one or two years retired.
Kyle Luetters: Gotcha.
[00:07:41] Danton Troyer: Yeah, we obviously help on the financial side and maybe start some of those conversations that you’re having, but certainly not to the level that you’ve had.
[00:07:48] Danton Troyer: Talking with Tim, one of your previous folks on the podcast before, he was just talking about how great it was, and that’s what really got me interested, is maybe there’s some of that stuff we should be talking more about. But we do see people [00:08:00] really underestimate that transition and that loss of identity, whereas they’re coming to see us, they’re obviously concerned about the financial side.
[00:08:07] Danton Troyer: But even after we help solve that, there’s still this whole other aspect of the side that you’re talking about of, how does that work? One of the questions we always get is, “I get a paycheck. How do I get a paycheck moving forward?” And it’s like, for us, it’s like that’s the simplest thing ever.
[00:08:22] Danton Troyer: But there’s all these just little things like, “What do I do every day now that I can?” So I’m curious, what role has the class helped with as far as just redefining that purpose as you transition?
[00:08:37] Thomas Auffenberg: Yeah. And purpose, as I mentioned, is a big thing people are looking for in that next chapter, and that tends to answer a lot of the other questions.
[00:08:48] Thomas Auffenberg: It can… if one finds a purpose, it can help redefine one’s identity. It might help supply some new community. It clearly might eliminate the sphere of boredom. I think it [00:09:00] can even help with potential health issues that, you know, having a purpose can be a very healthy thing. One thing I’d say is most people, and I ask this question early in the program and say, “How many people have decided to participate in this program ’cause their major concern is, ‘How am I gonna fill all this free time?'”
[00:09:23] Thomas Auffenberg: And if you think about it, and you know this from being in the financial business, but people who have adequate financial resources and are in reasonably good health and don’t have undue caregiving responsibilities, and sadly, some people get those, it’s freedom that you’ve never experienced before. It’s probably the most radical freedom you’ve ever had in your life.
[00:09:45] Thomas Auffenberg: And that can be daunting. And so a lot of people, their major concern when they start is How am I gonna fill up all this time? What’s this gonna look like? And that is an important concern, but another very key [00:10:00] question is what kind of person do I wanna be in my next chapter? Who do I wanna be as a person?
[00:10:06] Thomas Auffenberg: And so we spend some time on that, and answering that question well answers a lot of the question of how do I wanna spend my time? I might decide I wanna be more generous with my time, talent, and treasure. I might wanna be more prayerful. I may wanna be more patient, whatever it is.
[00:10:26] Thomas Auffenberg: So, but I would say when I ask the question, how many came here to figure out how to fill their time?, probably 95% of the people will raise their hand and say that was their primary interest.
Kyle Luetters: Interesting.
Thomas Auffenberg: And 5% will maybe say, “Figure out who I wanna be,” or whatever. But as we proceed through, almost all of them are much more focused on who they wanna be as a person in that next chapter.
[00:10:55] Thomas Auffenberg: And as I say, it’s more the being question than the doing question, though the being [00:11:00] question really helps answer the doing question. If that makes sense.
[00:11:05] Kyle Luetters: Yeah, absolutely. It does. And walk us through, when you run a session of the program, what does that look like? So kinda give us a timeline, if you will.
[00:11:15] Kyle Luetters: And maybe they’re all different, but kinda give us a timeline of what it looks like to walk through that program.
[00:11:20] Thomas Auffenberg: Our sessions are long, so I haven’t really… The program is basically seven sessions, and the first session is six hours in length. The sessions two through six are four hours in length, and there’s an overnight retreat after the fourth session.
[00:11:39] Thomas Auffenberg: So that’s the session schedule and the length of the sessions. There’s about five to eight hours of work to do in between sessions, and that’s one of the things, people have to be committed to doing that work. Because if they don’t, they’re not gonna get nearly as much out of it, and their [00:12:00] participants aren’t gonna benefit as much from their input.
[00:12:03] Thomas Auffenberg: So that’s the schedule, that’s the length of the sessions. When we actually hold one of these sessions, it’s a combination of maybe some lecture, maybe a video, but we’ll spend a lot of time in large group discussions about the work that was done to prepare for the session. But we’ll spend a lot more time in smaller group discussions.
[00:12:26] Thomas Auffenberg: And one of the things, I call this a spiritual journey. And for me, when I participated in a program like this, it was probably the first time in my life I really tried to intentionally Include God in the planning process.
[00:12:42] Kyle Luetters: Yeah.
[00:12:43] Thomas Auffenberg: I tried to co-partner with God to determine what my next chapter would look like.
[00:12:48] Thomas Auffenberg: One of the ways you can… And so the program focuses on how do you hear God’s voice in your life? But one of the ways to hear it is through other people’s voices. And so it’s a group context, but [00:13:00] we’ll hear year after year how glad they are that they participated with a group of people facing the same transition rather than just trying to go it alone.
[00:13:11] Thomas Auffenberg: And so I would say probably 50% of our time will be spent in some kind of group discussion, and the rest is… sometimes it’s working sessions, sometimes it’s lectures, sometimes… But the lecture part is, as I say, it isn’t a heavy component of the actual program. ‘Cause I’m not there to try to teach them how to retire.
[00:13:34] Thomas Auffenberg: I’m there to try to lead them on a journey where they decide what they want that retirement chapter to look like, and it’s different for everybody. We have no preconceived notions as to this is how one ought to come up with a plan. And the one thing I’ll say about the program is I like outcomes.
[00:13:51] Thomas Auffenberg: I like them to really have an outcome that will be helpful to them. And everybody that completes the program [00:14:00] has generated a draft of a next chapter plan that’s always gonna be subject to change as life, but they do have a plan for- maybe you could, like in your world, a financial plan.
[00:14:12] Thomas Auffenberg: They have kind of a life plan for their next chapter that will need to be tweaked, but hopefully they’ve learned the process of tweaking it well, so.
[00:14:21] Kyle Luetters: Mm-hmm.
[00:14:21] Thomas Auffenberg: Long-winded answer. Hope it answered your question.
[00:14:24] Kyle Luetters: No, it did, and I like that you have that, you tied the spiritual element into that. And if I can ask a follow-up question to that, when you introduce that into the program, what is the reception like on that?
[00:14:37] Kyle Luetters: Because that’s a big topic from a spirituality standpoint, and you might have a broad, diverse group. How do those conversations usually go in the program?
[00:14:49] Thomas Auffenberg: Most of the people that are attracted to the program, it’s not just for Catholics or Presbyterians or whatever. And most of them would be Christian.
[00:14:56] Thomas Auffenberg: And this, there’s exceptions to every rule, but a lot of our [00:15:00] people that have participated have had some religious practices, going to church on Sunday or whatever, but they really haven’t developed what they would call a daily prayer life that’s really meaningful for them. And the spirituality type that I’m most versed in and think is a great fit for a program like this is Ignatian spirituality, which is
[00:15:26] Thomas Auffenberg: Saint Ignatius started the Jesuits, and he had developed this whole spirituality. So we expose them early on to different styles of prayer most of them are unfamiliar with. A few might be familiar with them, but in general, most of them are unfamiliar with. And there are ways of praying that are really reflective, but for the most part, they find something they are very happy to be exposed to and have never really tried praying that way.
[00:15:55] Thomas Auffenberg: One of the things that’s encouraged is to pray daily through the program. If you’re gonna try- [00:16:00] to co-partner with God to create a program, it’s helpful to be prayerful through it. And I would say some people, more than others, just will struggle to develop that daily prayer life or to find it something they can be consistent at.
[00:16:16] Thomas Auffenberg: But overall, there’s enough emphasis placed on it, and other people are speaking to how much they’ve benefited from it, and so it brings people on board to really give it a try. And my experience has been people are tremendously grateful for the first time developing a daily prayer practice that really works for them.
[00:16:41] Thomas Auffenberg: And so it’s more exposing them to it, asking them to do it, talking about it, but it tends to take hold with some quicker than others. But overall, it tends to take hold with almost everybody that participates.
[00:16:56] Kyle Luetters: That’s cool.[00:17:00]
[00:17:01] Danton Troyer: So when you guys are going through this program, and obviously everybody’s starting at a different place, and then they’re developing this plan, what are some of the best ways, we just talked about prayer, but what are some of the ways that people are able to implement this plan into their life after leaving the class that you’re seeing that the more successful folks, and how they define success is different too, but…
[00:17:25] Thomas Auffenberg: Yeah. The plan gets created somewhat late in the program. And we cover a lot of ground on helping them become more self-aware of their talents, possibly their spiritual gifts, about some of the challenges, common challenges of retirement, and which ones might present the most issues for them.
[00:17:50] Thomas Auffenberg: So there’s kind of a self-awareness part of it that starts it out, and then they’re introduced to a way of making prayerful [00:18:00] decisions. The hope is that they’re gonna use what’s called Ignatian discernment to help them make any significant decisions they have to make with respect to what their plan’s gonna look like.
[00:18:11] Thomas Auffenberg: And then you come to the plan, and once they develop the plan, then they kinda report it out. But one thing that we include in the program, which I think is important, is when the program concludes, we really encourage them, and they do, to form smaller implementation groups of the people that they participated in the program with.
[00:18:33] Thomas Auffenberg: So maybe if there’s 30 people in the program, three of them will break off and three others, and 10 groups of three, whatever it is. And they meet, they choose it, It’s all up to them. I don’t coordinate this. But usually they’re gonna meet once a month and kinda check in. And those implementation groups, they’re a good group to brainstorm with.
[00:18:54] Thomas Auffenberg: They’re a good group to bounce ideas off of. But there’s also an [00:19:00] accountability feature to them that people say is very helpful ’cause there’s usually a fair amount of implementation to be done. Now you got a plan, and if you decided, “I wanna give 25% of my time to some type of significant volunteer activity,” let’s take that for example.
[00:19:18] Thomas Auffenberg: There might be a lot of work in figuring out what is that specific activity gonna be. And to have some encouragement and some people to brainstorm with and some accountability can be very helpful in taking it from just a plan to kinda being hopefully fully implemented.
[00:19:36] Kyle Luetters: Yeah. I love that.
[00:19:37] Kyle Luetters: And as we kinda like head for home here, Tom, is there anything about the program that you really wanna call out that we haven’t covered yet? Like just something that really speaks to you as a guide through this process?
[00:19:55] Thomas Auffenberg: We haven’t talked too much about how people are gonna use their time. And [00:20:00] that’s a key question, even though maybe it becomes less the focus as we go, it’s always an important focus of how am I gonna use my time? And I think one of the things through the materials we have that I really try to help encourage them to do is really look at balance, because people can get as busy in retirement as they were in their work life and not maintain the balance that they desired.
[00:20:32] Thomas Auffenberg: But first of all, they gotta establish what do they want that balance to be? That is something we haven’t touched on, that it’s not just what am I gonna do?, but how am I gonna balance this and strive and create the right balance in my life?, which it’s very easy to not accomplish.
[00:20:50] Kyle Luetters: I do know that’s true.
[00:20:53] Kyle Luetters: Tom, if, if folks wanted to find out more about the program, where’s the best place for them to head to [00:21:00] get, just the basic information, then possibly sign up?
[00:21:03] Thomas Auffenberg: The website is thenextchapterinstitute.com, www.thenextchapterinstitute.com. It just so happens we start in October and end in April, and so we do our recruiting in usually May and June for the October.
[00:21:21] Thomas Auffenberg: We are at capacity for this go round. So to participate in it, they’d have to be looking at the 2027-28 October to April. We only run it once a year, October through April. But if they go to that website, they can find out. And we always lead it off with information sessions.
[00:21:44] Thomas Auffenberg: We want everybody who’s thinking about participating to come to an information session, hear about the program, get to ask their questions, get a sense of the other people that they’re gonna be journeying with, and leave there with all the information they need to decide, “Is this for me or is this not [00:22:00] for me?”
[00:22:00] Thomas Auffenberg: And those tend to take place in May and June. But if they pay attention to that website, they’ll know when those information sessions are coming up.
[00:22:09] Danton Troyer: I have one other question. Are there…so either on your website or just in general, if someone is thinking about this outside of your class, are there resources that you recommend to the other folks that maybe they can’t attend the class or whatever, that you found very valuable or that you’ve used in the class?
[00:22:26] Thomas Auffenberg: This might be self-promotion, but- I don’t wanna do that. But one of the things that happened over the years is, as I say, there’s been probably 500 people go through the program or something like that, if you count Minnesota, too. And their friends or their relatives or somebody will find out about it that doesn’t live in
[00:22:47] Thomas Auffenberg: St. Paul, Minnesota or doesn’t live in St. Louis. So I’ll get inquiries as to, “My cousin told me this is awesome, but is there one of these in Denver? Is there one of these in Los Angeles?” And whatever. And quite frankly, [00:23:00] one with this strong spiritual approach, especially grounded in an Ignatian spiritual approach, I know of no other.
[00:23:08] Thomas Auffenberg: If I did, I’d let you know. I decided after telling people no, and who’s gonna travel to St. Louis seven times from Denver- … to attend a program, or from LA?
[00:23:17] Danton Troyer: Yeah. True.
[00:23:18] Thomas Auffenberg: I decided to write a book.
[00:23:20] Danton Troyer: Okay. Okay.
[00:23:20] Thomas Auffenberg: So I wrote a book that’s really true to the content, and I really encourage people who… So far I haven’t promoted it much.
[00:23:29] Thomas Auffenberg: I’ve just told people about it who are contacting me from other cities, that here’s a book, you can travel through it, it’ll expose you to the program. But I really encourage you to try to travel through it in kind of a small group book club type format- rather than just go it alone. So that book’s out there, and that’s called Discerning Retirement.
[00:23:50] Thomas Auffenberg: And that can be found on Amazon.
[00:23:53] Kyle Luetters: Gotcha. Very cool.
[00:23:55] Thomas Auffenberg: So that’s how I, that’s how I-
[00:23:58] Kyle Luetters: Forward this
[00:23:58] Thomas Auffenberg: … tried to satisfy people that [00:24:00] were gonna never come to St. Louis or St. Paul. And maybe it’ll be in other cities sometime, but right now that’s it.
[00:24:05] Danton Troyer: That’s it. That’s great.
[00:24:06] Kyle Luetters: We might suggest Hawaii. I think you’d get a lot of people go there.
[00:24:09] Thomas Auffenberg: Yeah. I have to find the leaders. Kyle, would you go lead it in Hawaii if it was there?
[00:24:15] Kyle Luetters: If you force me.
Danton Troyer: Hey, whoa, whoa.
Kyle Luetters: If you force me, Tom. I’m your guy if you force me, I guess.
Tom, this has been a wonderful and a very thoughtful conversation. I can say personally, looking forward to this one since we heard about the program, ’cause I think I remember sitting in the studio when we recorded that episode and hearing there really is something like this, and now to get to meet the man and a lot of the force behind that has been really cool.
[00:24:38] Kyle Luetters: So just on, on behalf of our little group here, wanted to say thank you for making some time today to talk about this. Very cool.
[00:24:45] Thomas Auffenberg: And I guess I’ll say in conclusion, if that’s all right, that for somebody who really is looking to take a spiritual approach to discerning what they want their next chapter to look like, this program’s a great fit.
[00:24:59] Thomas Auffenberg: For somebody [00:25:00] who’s not interested in a spiritual approach, probably not. But that’s how I’d categorize it.
[00:25:06] Kyle Luetters: Very cool. Folks, what a wonderful episode. And Wit, Wisdom, and What Matters Most is a production of Moneta’s Gast Freeman Troyer team. Until next time, enjoy what matters most.
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